November 1960
Issue: 23
EMRE’s Conversations: 23
EMRE’s Conversations 23
(Notes which could be saved in a conversation at home of Necati Büyüktermiyeci who is a technician in Konya Highway Authority)
Q. – We couldn’t see a full definition of Sufism.
Emre – It’s just a state… There’s no definition of a pleasure. The state, knowledge, rosary are different from each other. Shall we teach God His name? In Arabic dikhr means to talk. It’s not to say a name hundred or thousand times.
Actually prayer beads also try to tell about human. Aren’t there three parts consisting of 33 pieces each? Totally they’re 99. There are also 99 good names of Allah. They correspond to the good, clear characters. The human must study them instead of counting the beads. When those good characters manifested from us, the rosary falls from our hand. Rosary is given to us in order to have a good character by counting the beads and bolt from the top and long one (imame). This makes us save from the unending circle. Moreover it’s said that the only salvation from that circle is just through this top and long bead. Actually, it’s not possible without a guide.
Q. – Isn’t the goal of religion to have good moral? What if I have a good moral without being a religious person?
Emre – Just at this situation, the matter becomes easy. Because the mind is freed from the bonds of morality and becomes free. The first foods of mind are bad morals. When they’ve gone, the lamp of conscience shines. Sufism comes after that. Mind changes.
Q. – Ok. It’s began here. So, what the sufism is looking for?
Emre – If you start to search God, God also searches you.
Q. – Do we search God in sufism?
Emre – Yes. But we can’t find unless we lose ourselves.
Q. – Does human search for the thing which exists?
Emre – That’s it… You said so… It’s also being said in Koran. It’s said that “ the distance of some people between God takes fifty thousand years.” But for the other ones it says: “closer than the jugular vein.”
There are different ways to know God. Knowing about his existence is being close in knowledge (exoteric).Then comes being close in certain (esoteric), being close in truth (self experience). Besides, there is also being lost, being absent in God.
The christians also know the Being of God. The deniers also say ‘oh my God !’ when they fall into a trouble but at that time it has no meaning.
The religion isn’t just being right. If this were true, the Swiss people would be muslim higher than us. Is there any nation left in the world which is worse than the muslims?
There is such a pleasure beyond the clear moral which we call it as religion. We call this realm (which is beyond the mind) as sufism. They call it as metaphysics.
Q. – But they can’t describe…
Emre – They can…
Q. – They’re writing volumes of books; but they can’t compromise.
Emre – They are doing. But they’re writing volumes of books in order to tell the one who is weak and ignorant just like me.
Q. – Not at all!
Emre – Muhiddîni Arabî says: “Knowledge is just a dot which is multiplied by the ignorant”. If so, why he wrote such a lot of books? For the ignorant people just like me… He had been unified with Dot.
Q. – They’re explaining these revelations like this. The western scientists explain them depending on the positive science.
Emre – What do they say?
Q. – They say some people has a deep innate sensitivity. The extraordinary situations make them agitate. For example Nedim had said the best of his poems as improvised.
Emre – That’s also true, but human talks about the things which he/she loves. For example, he loves a woman and talks about her. If the sparks of a brasier is distributed and touches to your nose, you say “oh! my nose”. If it touches to my face, I say “oh! My face”. But isn’t it better of those sparks come to our mind, conscience and we say “My mind! my conscience!”
The matter is to turn our direction to the (Eternal Being). Human can go anywhere he/she wants just after he freed of lameness. So, let’s go to The Truth (Haqq) instead of going elsewhere. The ones who went there, are eternally alive. Because our prophet says that “the believers don’t die”. But this belief must be a pure one, instead of an usual belief.
Let’s talk about the religion. Let’s start with testimony. (Ashhadu..) What do we mean when we say Ashhadu? “I witness that there is Allah but no other God.” But being a witness depends on witnessing. There is a man of law with us here. Does judge accept the witnessing of the one who didn’t see the event? No, to hear and to see isn’t equal. Some people perseveres, sacrifices each belongings of him/her and see God. But we all have this perseverance, capability of seeing. However we are spending and ending this perseverance and might of will to other things. The sufis are delivering their will to its owner; source. But this isn’t laziness! We need to work. I have an ironworks. If I could, I would work more than this. Because I understood that sufism isn’t laziness. The lazy people are deprived of sufism. Then the fieriest revelations had been occurred while working. The friends had been written. While I was working , I had been used to say the revelations. So, to work isn’t an obstacle in this path; rather it’s necessary. God graces such a lot of things…If He wants, holds us to Himself.
Q. – We are the beginners, just interested.
Emre – Not at all, You are inside.
Q. – Some people had been skewered themselves?
Emre – This is the worst blasphemy in sufism. Those states are the stages of the sufic path. The Prophet Mohammed advices his followers to die before being died. The loyal ones, try to kill themselves, sacrify their lives when they misunderstood the spiritual meaning of this word. But when they saw that they don’t die, they understood that it’s a miracle. If they like this state and repeat, the miracle turns to abomination.
If it were a good thing, wouldn’t The Prophet Mohammed do this always? Does skewering teach us a knowledge? There are so many skewers who don’t aware of sufism.
Q. – Why don’t they die?
Emre – Because they are being absent in God. Faith, faith!
Q. – But there is blood, vein there?
Emre – The mind assumes that so, says so. The skewer isn’t skewered to the one’s self who skewed actually.
Someone had skewed a skewer just like this. Someday there comes a horseman before him with a sword. He says:
-You, sinful, what you’ve done? I’ll pluck your head now.
Man says with fear:
–What did I do to you? I even don’t know you. Horseman opens and shows his breast and says:
–What else would you do? Look, you riddled my breast ?
–But sir, I see you just now; who are you?
–I’m Ahmed er Rıfâî. Don’t you call and bond me whenever you riddle? Do you feel the pain of the skewers? No. You always riddle those skewers to me. He says: “Don’t do it again”, and then disappears.
My Hazrat Sage also used to do this. Someday we were in vineyard. He had crouched. Then he called me:
–Come here, let’s eat grape.
I went to his side and sat down; we started to eat grape. While eating from the vinestocks we arrived to a vineyard of a widow. Then over there I became aware that the grapes were just flowers.
These are all blocking obstacles, causing the delay. If God doesn’t help, the life of a mortal isn’t enough for this staff. Yazıcıoğlu says in his book (Muhammediye):
“You, sage! At the realm of unity, one wouldn’t know God if he didn’t catch the ball despite of his run even two thousand years long.”
Yazıcıoğlu says that even at the realm of “unity”, one couldn’t know God without catching the ball (there is a ball) despite of running during his entire life even two thousand years long. This ball is love.
Anyway, Hazrat Sage also had given up those miraculous things later then. Someday he said to me: “my son, don’t waste your time dealing with those things much, as I did. These are not miracle, but abomination.”
Q. – Are you mentioning about an eternal life?
Emre – I’m not the only one, in religion also it’s being mentioned. The eternal life can only be understood as a state just after the comprehension of transient structure of this physical body. This body is distributed, decayed but human doesn’t die. This body consists of four elements. When we die, they all turn back to their sources. But the might which is saying from those four elements don’t die. That’s what we are…
Q. – Won’t we die?
Emre – There is an hadith: “The believers don’t die.“ Can it be true with a formal belief ? This word isn’t for the ones who aren’t in this level. But no one must feel hopeless. This door is open to everyone. In Koran, it’s said: “never lose hope from the grace of God.” If we don’t trust and hang on Him, it doesn’t matter even if we had reached the state of being absent in God. It’s the biggest trouble to say “I got away with it”. In this state, one can’t get pleasure. But this knowledge is fully pleasure. There is satisfaction for the worldly foods, pleasures but this state has no satisfaction. Does a dead one be satisfied?
Q. – Does mind become incapable?
Emre – If it understood its incapableness, that shows it began to grow. A child can’t lift this chair; but as time passed he/she can lift.
Q. – From where we need to begin?
Emre – From the incapableness.
Q. – Can it be possible?
Emre – Of course; because we are obligated to walk starting from our state.
Q. – When was the existence of soul understood?
Emre – Someone understood, someone didn’t. The hodjas say that “the eye of a mortal can’t see God”. Isn’t it true?I say, yes it’s true. Let’s think about it. If this eye belongs to us, lets manage it. I’ve made self-denial three years long in order to understand my identity. I couldn’t find anything in myself which I can define “that’s mine”. When I understood this and faded from the scene, He understood Himself.
Q. – In ancient times, when was understood that there is a soul separate from the body?
Emre – At that time when the prophets began after death. What can a body do when the soul had left? Now, the eye of this body can’t see the soul. It’s being said that “you must die before your death”; we understand this as a physical death. No, the death which he told is the unity of our percept with the holistic knowledge.
Can the ones who don’t know Bağdat understand, despite of a full description. When the two knowers talk to each other, a pleasure is manifested.
Q. – You mean soul had been discovered when the first tutor came, isn’t it?
Emre – In truth my son, if God is primeval, soul is also primeval. There is no thing as time. Don’t think about those things. They distract you from your path. No need to start from those places to come to your place. How can you walk through the way of million years long. There were many Adams at all Times…
There was a merchandise manager in Adana named Mr.Tevfik. Then he got mad. He used to talk good. He knew the law well. Someday he came to our shop. There was a great hodja named Mr.Sait; they were talking to. I was a small boy. I was making their coffee. While they were drinking, Mr. Sait asked: “Sometimes you are clean and clever, perfect. But there comes a time that nothing remains. You’re giving up shame; what’s this state about?”
Mr. Tevfik first of all had laughed, then asked the hodja:
-What do you do when your hand itches?
-I scratch.
-What if your head itches?
-I scratch again.
-What if your back itches?
-I scratch.
Mr. Tevfik goes on this sequence: “what if this, what if that”. At last he said:
–What if your mind itches?
Hodja started to think. There’s no answer. Mr.Tevfik said upon this:
–Well, at that time my mind itches. When I couldn’t scratch, that state occurs.
A human can remember his/her life path from his/her childhood till to the present time. But can he/she know the path of future? In that case, that means mind is walking backwards. If we return, backward diminishes and we start to see our front. For this reason, The Prophet Mohammed says that “past must be forgotten”. We need to accept this hadith. If we remember continuously the past, that means we are doing a boring job. Because the mind goes backward, it falls into a well instantly.
Q. – Ancient Egyptians were assuming that soul will continue to live after leaving the body. Did they know the principle of soul?
Emre – If they knew, they wouldn’t be hung up on this body.
A perfect one calls his students just before his death and says them:
–I’m leaving this realm. Ask your questions if you have .
Some of them asks:
–Where do we need to construct your tomb after your death?
-I don’t want a tomb. Throw me to the meadows.
-How can it be my sir? Then jackals eat you.
-If so, put a wand near to me.
-What will you do with this wand?
-I’ll dismiss the jackals.
-How can a dead dismiss jackals?
–Why do you value body and think to construct a tomb for this body which is incapable even to dismiss a jackal? I want nothing. If so, you didn’t understand me.
Mevlânâ (Rumi) also says: “After death, look for me through the loving hearts of sages.”
Q. – But they have made a tomb for Mevlânâ?
Emre – Would they make if they understood his word? But it’s also useful because it made us meet each other. We came here for you, not for the tomb of Mevlana. It has been similar to Kaaba. Didn’t he say about this place “the Kaaba of lovers”. But the one who isn’t a lover calls him even as infidel. Therefore, there has been a state of “being lover” in islam.
Q. – Did it occur previously or later ?
Emre – It occured previously. Love is a great essence. Yunus Emre says:
| İşidin ey kardaşlar, aşk bir güneşe benzer, Aşkı olmayan kişi misâli taşa benzer | Listen brothers, love is just like sun, The one who hasn’t it, is like stone. |
One of the poets has said: “The one who doesn’t know where he/she came and to where he/she will go is the animal.” There are also similar words in Koran. Some people are called as “the perfect form”. For the others, it’s being said that “ lower than the animals”. Some people are called as “rotten, buttressed tree”. For which people those words were said? We don’t know because there’s no name…
Q. – You’ve said in a conversation: “There’s no veil in eyes of animals, they know everything.” But now, you are lowering them.
Emre – Animal is the one which is alive. Their life is temporary. Although we are searching an eternal life. The difference between human and animal is being aware of eternal life. They serve the people. They eat at evening and don’t think about the morning. They don’t know halal or illicit. They enter the shop, eat the apples, runs away when beaten, then enters another shop to eat again.
Q. – If they have no veil in their eyes, they must be higher than us.
Emre – If it were put a golden, silver or ruby here, can an animal take it? Because of its lack of knowledge, it can’t take but it sees the secret.
But don’t deal with them. These make us run, then we fall somewhere.
Q. – We seem to be stuck between two things: Positive and spiritual sciences.
Emre – May God worsen hopefully.
Q. – The positive sciences are saying something about the cosmology (creation of the world). The spiritual knowledge says completely the reverse.
Emre – Don’t deal with any of them. Our earth is an eternal one. It’s hard to stay without circling on this earth which is circling. God only wants a pure heart from us. We aren’t responsible from how the earth has been created. Because there is no end of those things.
At those times in which medicine wasn’t so improved, they used to examine the mad people in order to free. I can say that all of the mad people sometimes become wise at some duration. They used to examine them by wringing their minds. When the mind is tired, it frees itself. If the state of madness remains, it manifests. Their examination was to count the fleece. Understanding the beginning and end of this earth is also similar to this job.
Q. – Are the science of astronomy, archeology useless?
Emre – No, they’re not. Their usage can’t be denied.
Q. – Wouldn’t be helpful to know the greatness of the universe in understanding God’s might.
Emre – My brother, these are all fleece. We’ve said before, there are a lot of galaxies… Which one will you able to know? We are ordered to know ourselves in order to know God. I mean to know and to find. We need to save ourselves instead of knowing the earth or a galaxy…
Q. – But this is similar to meet the author without reading his book.
Emre – Is your life long enough to read all the books of this author? Try to identify His book from your point of view.
Q. – “Tree is known by its fruit”. First of all, it’s needed to see the creation of someone, then it comes the judge about him/her.
Emre – So, could The Prophet Mohammed describe God for our understanding? Which sciences exist in Koran?
Q. – All of them.
Emre – Which one for example?
Q. – For example lunar eclipse.
Emre – Is this a science? It’s just have said in surah Yâsin: “they’re all being swim in sky”. For the moon, it’s being said: “And the Moon, We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date stalk.”
Q. – But you said before “we need to swallow Koran”.
Emre – Can a drop swallow the sea? In order to swallow, it has to be swallowed by it.
Q. – It’s necessary to understand the essence of this matter.
Emre – They ask Hazrat Hüseyn: “What did you learn from your father?” He says: “I’ve learned two things from my father: the language of God and the language of people. If I say the things which I’ve learned with language of God, you would kill me.” As a result, it happened to him. I mean it’s not easy to tell. It’s needed to work. Everything has a specific time. We want to swallow everything instantly but it takes time. It’s necessary to comprehend, to progress in this path. I mean our mind must grow.
Q. – In Inner Source, you say that it’s not possible to go to the moon?
Emre – Yes, they can’t. And they can’t live there.
Q. – How do you know?
Emre – If you think that I don’t know, why do you ask?
Q. – Let’s prove it.
Emre – If they bring the orange here, can you grow it?
Q. – But we’re talking about going to the moon.
Emre – Since it’s a claim, it’s needed to be silent.
Q. – We’re asking to you.
Emre – If you’re asking. No one can live in the moon.
Q. – You’re saying that it’s impossible to go to the moon.
Emre – One burns as soon as he/she arrives there.
Q. – Can’t one also live in Mars?
Emre – He/she can’t. Most of the planets consists of rocks. Every planet in this galaxy takes its light from sun. The suns of other galaxies can’t be seen from this galaxy.
A.– I didn’t accept two things. One of them is the things which are contrary to the religious duties. For example there are fundamentals in science. There are also fundamentals in spiritual sciences. I believe in Koran as in all aspects. God have ordered us to pray five times a day. These are obligations till to the death. It’s necessary to apply them as a muslim. Otherwise, I don’t think that the things beyond can be available.
The next one, I believe in that it’s possible to go to the moon and the planets not today maybe but in the future.
Emre – Does going to the moon exist in terms of religion?
A.– It has to be…
Emre – No. Someday a hodja came to our shop. But he denied his being hodja. We were sitting in the office desk of shop then he came. Peace be with you! Peace be upon you! Then we gave up working. That’s because he was a visitor.
-I said, “you’re welcome my hodja.”
-He said “I’m not a hodja.”
–Ok. My hodja, which one do you prefer tea or coffee?
-Tea. But I’m not a hodja.
Hodja started to talk:
–Our religion is so high, there are everything like airplanes, atoms, ships inside of it.
He talked so much and at some time he said that he was preaching. Then I said: “My hodja, when you came here you said that you aren’t a hodja. Now you’re talking about your sermon.
Don’t God curse the liar in Koran?”
Hodja started to transpire. He needed to run away. But I went on:
–The European found airplane in Koran, isn’t it?
-Yes.
-If so, they’re muslims better than you. Because of Koran is the word and order of God, they understood the word of God better than me and you. If there were airplanes, atoms in Koran, why didn’t you hodjas tell this to us? Why didn’t you make them?
Hodja became silent, he stood up and ran away.
There’s no such a science in Koran. The Prophet Mohammed had seen them but hadn’t describe. He doesn’t. Even if he did, their mind couldn’t understand this science in those days.
The surah “Have you not considered, [O Muhammad], how your Lord dealt with the companions of the elephant?” also describes the bombs at this time.
Q. – What must we do in order to understand them?
Emre – Contemplation.
Q. – Can the mind which is absorbed in meditation solve it completely?
Emre – Yes.
Q. – The multiplicity of tariqs astonish us. What if they lead us astray? We afraid of that.
Emre – They do. You know the story of elephant for blind people: They decide to see the elephant. The owner of the elephant gives an opium to the elephant and says the blind ones: “The effect of opium is transient; touch the elephant and then as soon as run away.” They do what he said. When they go back to their place, they begin to describe each other what they’ve seen. Some of them says “it’s similar to a barrel”, the other says “no, it’s like a pipe”, the other says: “it’s like post of a rooftop”, the other says: “it’s like a brush”. Each one describes the part which she/she could touch. After all of them claim that their sight is true, they start to fight.
One can’t see each side unless his/her eyes are opened. Our eye also can’t see and grasp each side of the truth. We can only comprehend through our conception.
Q. – But eye doesn’t belong to us… As you’ve said.
Emre – Ok. If so, we need to hand in our eye to God. So, we have to walk in this path till to understand that this eye doesn’t belong to us.
Q. – Can there be many people who understood the truth?
Emre – Maybe. God has given a limit for that. He didn’t say it has to be little. But a tree can’t only consist of fruits. There are a lot of leaves but fewer fruits. But each pretender can be a fruit if he/she works.
Captured by: Şevket Kutkan
EMRE’s Narratives, Aphorisms, Instantaneous Answers:
*Emre – The one who says “I’m this! I’m that!” is drawing a line around him/her in fact and remains inside of it.
*Emre – The Prophet Mohammed had said in one of his hadiths “The biggest wisdom is fear of God.” In another hadith, he says that “the one who fears is actually traitor.” It seems that there is a contradiction between the two hadiths, but actually they’re completely true. Because those words had been said for the one who is responsible. If one is needed to afraid of God and to give up bad character, it has been said: “The biggest wisdom is fear of God.” “The one who fears is actually traitor” is common for the people. Because God says in Koran for the saints: “they neither afraid of, nor grieve”.
*Emre – Integrity is eternal. If we bend just like bowing down, how long can we stay? Besides, we can walk around all day as being right.
*Emre – “The Perfection” is similar to the earth. The more you dig you’ll get more use. Your seed can go deeper.The perfection doesn’t get angry to the ones who imitate. Because it has no self. However, if you hit the stone which has a self with hammer, the sparks and pieces will spread to your eye.
*Emre – The beginning of innate science is the knowledge of incapacity. The one who doesn’t know his/her helplessness, can’t proceed in truth even one step. The one who says I, is fired from the presence of God, even if he were a prophet.
*Emre – Garnish is for the ugly. Love doesn’t need garnish. Its garnish is sincerity.
The Sufic Explanation of Nasreddin Hodja Narratives
You had to see it while it was a calf.
Someday Tamerlane, had been invited Nasreddin Hodja to go to a jereed play. Hodja had come to the arena riding a big ox.
When the viewers of jereed saw Hodja on an ox, with a spear in his hand, burst into laughter. Timur lenk astonishes and asks:
-My Hodja, what’s this state? Is it normal to come jereed play with an ox?
-You’re right my sir. It’s not normal to come to jereed play with an ox. But you had to see it while it was a calf. It was not possible to catch it even with a sling.
Interpretation:
Arena of jereed is the “Place of Love”, in which “Heroes of Truth” put nose to the grindstone. Nasreddin Hodja means that to this arena we must not come riding an old ox of will. We have to do it in ages when we are able to manage our will. When the will becomes old, we can’t manage it. We become a servant of our desires, habits and then we can’t enter the “Arena of Truth”. Even if we could enter, we wouldn’t be able to race with the heroes riding the horse of “Love”.
Nasreddin Hodja, had done this as an exemplary of the people around him. Yes, during the young ages (as a calf) , even a sling couldn’t catch after the will. But in old times, the will doesn’t even want to stand up. How in the world can it comes to a race in the “Struggle of Self” ?