November 1959
Issue: 22
EMRE’s Conversations: 22
EMRE’s Conversations 22
Q. – We were talking to Mr.Şevket. There was a subject about my trip to Balıkesir and for that reason I wouldn’t be able to meet you. He said that it’s better to write the questions in a letter. Although I couldn’t analyze those subjects. Because I’ve read the Inner Source just like a novel. In your conversations, you are defining the dream as vision.
Emre – The one who is dreaming is the mind of a person which is full of desires. The desire is similar to the berry seed. Mind plants it, grows it up, makes it a tree and shows us that seed as a tree.
Dream has no value. Dream doesn’t save human. Would there be a value of knowledge and science if we relate our future and actions to the dreams?
The dreams of human are according to their mind and their desires. A thirsty one sees himself/herself near the water. There is no specific duration for the realization of our desires as a dream. For example the dream of this night can be related with a desire planted to our mind either five years ago or yesterday. I mean dream is being shown to someone through himself/herself.
Q. – What do you say about the dream interpretation?
Emre – Yes, it’s been done something like this. The best one belongs to Cafer-i Loyal. He had differentiated the dreams into three parts: dream of normal people, dream of the lover, dream of the perfect one. He says that each part has its own interpretations. Normal people sees the desire of his/her own self. The lover of God also sees his desire. The perfect ones don’t see a dream.
Q. – What about the dream of Prophet Joseph in Koran ?
Emre – It’s a dream of prophet.
Q. – Isn’t a prophet perfect?
Emre – He is perfect. When a human evolved, there remains no need to dream. Actually they see those things without sleeping. Doesn’t the word “dream” come from the “vision”? Dream is also be seen like that and the real dream is the one which is seen as awake. This is called as “observation”, “revelation” (extrasensory perception). There comes a time, human goes such different realms and sees a lot of things…Even it’s been understood that the concept of sleeping is meaningless and sleep goes away. But those things also don’t save the human.
Q. – Doesn’t dream have a value?
Emre – Do they punish you, if you would kill a man in your dream? If you would find a bag full of golden, would there be something in your bag when you waked up? The dream is valuable while you awake.
Q. – Some events can be discovered previously by means of dreams.
Emre – You see because you demand that thing.
Q. – But the wish of the baker in surah of Joseph was not being hanged.
Emre – His wish had been forgotten because of the superiority of the other wishes.
The things which are seen by the prophets as spiritually aren’t called as dream because they are awake. It’s called as observation. But while they define their observations, they say dream for them because of our lack of knowledge.
Q. – They interpret the dreams. Some events of future can be discovered by dreams.
Emre – This is realized because of your judgement. For this reason, the dreams aren’t being interpreted by everyone. Instead they are interpreted by good persons who will interpret favourably. Human sees him/her self as small but he/she is much greater than the universe. And if he/she judges something, it happens. The wish of a genuine human can be realized but he/she doesn’t aware of that. Thus, even a prophet can make an error as being unaware. Every human is human. In this realm, there is also no differentiation among religions. Because it’s being said “each person comes to life as in islam nature and his/her family changes him/her as christian, judist, mazdean.” Is being born just being born to a mother? We are continually being borned to the new informations, new states, new realms. We are being died to a state and being borned to the new states.
Q. – As a consequence, you think the dream is a vision of one’s own wishes, isn’t it ?
Emre – Yes.
Q. – The wishes either realize or not. In that case, how the dreams fit the fate? For example, the dream of Joseph?
Emre – It’s a revelation.
Q. – Why did he say it as dream?
Emre – Koran is overall consisting of symbols. The truth is not explained offhand to everyone.
Q. – Wasn’t Joseph a child?
Emre – Koran aims to tell his spiritual childhood instead of his physical childhood. These are all symbols. Again, for example the travel of Jonah inside of the womb of fish. Did Jonah travel inside of the womb of fish? The events which are against the law of nature are surely symbols. Now, you are at the inside of your fish of body and you are swimming in the sea of contemplation. Jonah had served a perfect one seven years long; he had worked. After he became absent in God, he had declared his prophecy. Even The Prophet Mohammed said “I’m also a mortal just like you.” Jonah also was a mortal. How can a mortal stay inside of a fish seven years long?
Q. – Maybe he had stayed in transitory duration.
Emre – No, it’s seven years. Jonah had been worked seven years in order to ascent his knowledge to state. The ascension of knowledge to state is realized through this body not the fish. After his realization of himself as “not being a body which consists of flesh and blood covering us as a dress”, he could able to get out from this fish of body. There are some more things to say but it’s like a blasphemy; it’s hard to digest.
Q. – Can’t there be some truth related with the external meaning of the tales in Koran?
Emre – No. For this reason Niyazi Misri says:
“ In eating the green shell of a walnut, there’s no taste.
You aim to learn Koran through the external things.“
Is it possible to eat the green shell of a walnut? The external meaning of the tales in Koran is also similar to the green and hot shell of the walnut.
You are the intellectuals. Which one is better after reading the Koran; blowing or absorbing? I mean in order to understand the internal and real meaning. So, they call us as infidel, profane because we say the truth directly.
Q. – Blowing is also not useless.
Emre – Like what?
Q. – One can’t benefit from something unless dealing with it. The one who reads Koran also benefits from it.
Emre – We aren’t saying not to deal or read Koran. What is the usage that you’ve said.
Q. – Pascal explains it.
Emre – Forget about Pascal. We are all human and we are talking about a subject that we can understand. We can talk to each other and agree.
Q. – Let me send the answer of this from Balıkesir.
Emre – If Pascal understood, he would be Muslim. The thing which we don’t understand doesn’t belong to us. If we don’t understand the meaning of any book we are just like a carrier.
Q. – You’re saying that dhikr I mean to say (Allah! Allah!) is useless.
Emre – Can the ones contemplate who are telling their beads (Lâilâhe illâllah!)? They are continuously saying that as a habit of tongue, even with their minds dealing with some other things. This is not contemplation. Whereas The Prophet Mohammad says that “the contemplation of one hour is favourable than the praying 60 years long.” Did he say this for nothing?
Most of the ones who are telling their beads have been losing their reasons. Beside they also lose their ability to be a useful person for humanity. However if they could able to understand the meaning of (Lâilâhe illâllah) there would be no need to repeat. As soon as they understood the meaning of “There’s no Deity other than God” they would fall into and unending pleasure. What do you think about me if I say continuously “Mr. Vahit, Mr.Vahit” despite of being near to you.
Q. – Maybe someday I pay attention.
Emre – If I’m near to you, that means you don’t pay attention and I’m talking continuously. Look, it’s the same in praying. In Koran it’s been saying that “praying prevents evil and bad character”. If we don’t give up our bad character despite of our praying, then we can’t apply a real pray. Mevlana (Rumi) says: “you are proud of praying in a specific style; however there are hundred more prayings.”
Q. – This praying must also be useful.
Emre – Ok… It’s useful. But isn’t it better for our praying to save us from evil?
We need to understand the meaning, usage and underlying cause of our action. What deprived us of material progress and left us behind Europe was leaving all kinds of work aside and counting our beads in the corners of the dervish lodges.
Q. – Yes, our prophet says that “the contemplation of one hour is favourable than the praying 60 years long.”
Emre – That’s it… So, the contemplation is to digest the knowledge. But in order to digest, first of all we need knowledge, information. If one doesn’t know, what can he/she think about? If someone didn’t eat, what can he/she digest? So, if once we are in this earth, we must aim that either to understand or die. Some people only come to this realm just in order to eat, drink, marry and then leave. Just like the only aim was this. But we don’t censure them…We tolerate them but from a distance. We can’t point their state as a model. We see each state as it is, but we also want their progression.
If we have some trouble in this path, that means our heart is not perfect yet. In this case we need to work hard in order to solve each trouble of us.
Mr. A.Rıza – I made a conclusion from the words of Mr. Vahit: “The contemplations, the practices trains the person. If idea and action is unified this causes the ground in which the idea would result in an action“ Isn’t it?
Q. – Yes.
Mr. A.Rıza – Then a human becomes purified, depurate. He asks even if to follow this path is true or not?
Emre – It’s true to go in there. But it’s necessary not to stay there. Is there any usage of saying continuously “God, God” without understanding the secret of the hadith: “ The one who knows his /her self, knows also Lord (Rab) “
I also suffered for this state three to five years long. Sometimes this Omnipotent were saying those revelations through my mouth even in lavatory. I was repenting because I couldn’t understand the real cause of the matter. Then I thought that I’m not the one who says, why do I have responsibility? I’m obliged, condemned to say those words. This might can say his words anywhere. There is nothing for him like lavatory or something.
What would be my state if I had stayed in that stage of repent forever. Now that every stage perishes, then we must not stay in any opinion, presumption. It’s needed to go forward. If it were necessary to say “God, God” all over our lives, how could we able to learn knowledge, love, wisdom? How could those states be manifested? In order to reach these, you have to leave it.
But if information and action contradict, it’s like to eat pepper being aware that it’s hot.
Q. – The best example are the snakes. (snakes in Chess for Sages)
Mr. A.Rıza – Mr. Vâhit said fine: (Snakes), term. If the term of snakes remains on the table…
Q. – It starts to count the beads.
Emre – There comes a stage, you can’t move when you say God. If they throw you to the fire, you don’t burn. But these are also nothing. There are stages beyond that.
But don’t misunderstand, we neither despise the one who is counting the beads as “God, God”, nor praying the cross or an ikon. We all love them. Doesn’t the one who worship cross does it for the sake of God? He/she worships cross instead of his/her ego. That’s very nice! There had been remained only cross between his/her self and God. Whereas while we are praying, there are many things between God and our mind. But the lovers are not like this.
May God bless Mr.Vahit, he makes me say. Some people think that I’m being tired but rather this removes my state of tiredness.
Q. – But you made me think a lot upon your conversations.
Emre – Now, contemplation begins. May God not differ us from this conversation. How sweet is this thought… Now, can we think another thing? But there comes a lot of things during the praying. When you think by falling into the fire, can there be the other thoughts?
Q. – So, what if we concentrate during also the praying?
Emre – When your mind comes close to it, you can neither move nor think another thing. So, at that time the state of “worship your Lord (Rab) until certainty (being close) comes to you” is manifested. The ones who deal with external meanings, had been interpreted the certainty (being close) as death. But the truth is what the Koran and sufis said. Yazıcıoğlu Mehmet who is the writer of Muhammediye had said:
“Do I need a prayer room or sanctuary if my aim is the face of my guru?
I need to see his face in the mirrors of human face. “
Emre – In one print of Muhammediye this couplet is written in different way. Someone couldn’t digest and changed it when he saw Yazıcıoğlu neither demands a prayer room nor sanctuary, he just wants the face of his guru. If you want to read Muhammediye it’s better to read the poems (including his name) which are at the last part of the book.Yazıcıoğlu says in those poems full of love.
He also talks about the hell and heaven. He says “there is such a society in which people run away from the heaven just like you run away from the filth.” The prophet Mohammed also said similar words. He says: “Most of the people in heaven are stupid.” This shows that there is a place better than the heaven we know. As a result, heaven also is an obstacle between God and us, an idol.
Q. – Is heaven idol?
Emre – Yes; but for the lovers.
Q. – Is there a time to escape from it?
Emre – When someone escapes from himself/herself, there stays no idol also. Everything which we love other than God, is an idol, the only deity is God.
Q. – What if we think in a form ?
Emre – When the state of this verse: “All that lives on earth is doomed to die.
But the face of your Lord will abide forever in all its majesty and glory.” is manifested, Abraham put al-hajar al aswad in Kaaba which is similar to an eye.
Q. – What happens when that state is manifested?
Emre – There remains no one other than God.
Q. – But this happens in a form…
Emre – It’s formless. You can’t typify because there is not any similar one. It depends on the understanding of love. For this reason, perfection comes after the silence.
“Through the silence, perfect ones reached perfection.
If your word is silver, be silent then it turns to gold.“
The subject about Hodja Nasreddin’s goose also tells about this. While Hodja was walking around the bazaar, sees that someone who demands three to five bags of coin for a small bird. He thinks that “if this bird values five bags of coin, my goose values at least 15 bags of coin.“ Then he runs to his home to take the goose. He ties its feet and wait for a customer. Someone comes and says:
-Hodja how much is this goose?
– It’s 15 bags of coin.
-What are you saying my Hodja, does a goose value that much?
-Why not? Look, this man near to me demands 5 bags of coin just for a tiny small bird? Why can’t this big goose value 15 bags of coin?
-But that bird talks.
-If it talks, mine also is silent, it listens.
Q. – Was this state also manifested from Jesus Christ?
Emre- The same state had been manifested from all of them, but in progressed style from The Prophet Mohammed. Koran is another realm. The Prophet Mohammed had reached the end of this state; he found, had knew and then he informed us.
Q.- Who was The Perfect during the times of Jesus?
Emre – Jesus was. Which prophet had been denied by our prophet? He approves all of their prophecy. But Mohammed is not gone. If it were so, he would be 1370 years back. He is not lagging behind like the other prophets. He always in front of us. He is our guide; we are behind of him.
Q. – The christians call Jesus as God.
Emre – He was the perfect of his time but below from The Prophet Mohammed. Does He exist now? What about his divinity? But the manifestation of God is eternal both before him and after. They are all about the manifestations of a unique light.
Q. – Isn’t it much or less?
Emre – Yes. There comes a time, we assume ourselves below than all the others. And there comes a time we proud of being close to Him. We can’t stay in that state continuously. There needs also unawariness.
Q. – When the manifestation happens, does body remain?
Emre – Where the body can go? It only is removed from the mind. While we are thinking about the bank, do we aware of ourselves? The reason is another realm. If it deals with love, it’s called as Refref. If it deals with evil, it is called as devil. If you pour sugar into the water, it turns to syrup, if you pour coffee into the water, it turns to coffee. We are together with the thing which we think.
Mr. A.Rıza– Şinasi says:
| Kıl, bir Alem, adır senden beşerde, | As a mortal, you are just like an hair in universe, |
| Nasıl künhün muhit olsun kemâhi? | How can your essence circles properly ? |
How can a mind understand? My tutor Mr. Remzi Bey had used to say; “ if there is no faith, it can’t be understood despite of being texted.” The mind understands the manifestation and something according to itself.
Q. – It’s being said: “The innate-science (ilmi ledün) is not suitable for everyone.”
Emre – The one who says this, is stupid. He/she is the one who thinks himself/herself as chosen, higher than the others. If it’s not suitable for everyone, how can He make me responsible? God says in Koran “don’t steal”, this shows the possibility of not stealing. The evil things are also possible, doing them or not depends on our will. For this reason it’s forbidden.
Everyone can walk in this path; but he/she succeeds if he/she perseveres. God doesn’t call the people with their names.
Q. – Are the people equivalent as an innate?
Emre – Yes, if he/she has not a genetically psychological illness. We also have said that “all of the people are born with the nature of islam.”
Q. – Why does a child carry the responsibility of his/her father?
Emre – Responsibility belongs to the people. There is no heaven or hell for the ones other than human. Can there be responsibility for animals? It’s told that the ram of Ishmael, the camel of Saleh and Kıtmir are in heaven. These are also symbol. These are the characters of them which had been purified. Even if a mad would think that “what is God?”, he heals up.
Q. – But he can’t… This shows that there are incompatibles.
Emre – Sure there will be. There also will be stone, animal and human. But are those people you’ve seen the same? You are saying that the innate-science is not available for everyone. You mean everybody doesn’t have capability, but this isn’t true. Yes, mad can’t understand; but are you like him/her?
Q. – How can we teach the innate-science to the mature intelligence of a poxy child?
Emre – Does he/she has an existence?
Q. – But he/she exists…
Emre – Is it enough being existed? He isn’t aware of grace… Which animal doesn’t have mind in its own way? But it’s needed a normal mind which isn’t sick and which is aware of grace.
Q. – So, we have to define a border for this case.
Emre – No. Think about once: The one who said “the innate science isn’t available for everyone” have said it before you. Could you able to think about God and those subjects if you were mad?
As you can see, this subject is both nice and valuable beside it’s also great.
Q. – Especially great.
Emre – But its taste is in its difficulty.
Q. – Does people make it difficult?
Emre – The thickness of a good depends on its value.
Q. – Is the interest of bank illicit?
Emre – It’s not. I think, it’s not illicit. If this is depending on law, it means it’s depending on sharia. The thing which is depending on sharia is also depending on God. Doesn’t it obligatory to obey the common law? Do the things which law permits and don’t do the things which is forbidden. Besides, the bank interest also urges the trade.
EMRE’aphorisms, epigrams:
*Emre – Just like we need a mirror to see our face, we also need an inner mirror (a tutor) to see our inner face. This matter isn’t being solved unless someone leaves his/her own character in this life, and enter the heart of his guide.
*Emre – There stays no wood in hell when we stop to whinge; everywhere turns to heaven. The wood of hell is complaint.
*Emre – Being proud of self is the fruit of pride. When a tree starts to fruit , it doesn’t grow anymore. It gives the nutrition to its fruit. The vaunter also can’t proceed in his/her art and job.
*Emre – The castle of blood is this body which includes our character, mind and desires. It can only be conquered by love.
*Emre – Can the vision which is occurred in the mirror be the truth itself ? We are also being seen from this body but our true nature isn’t this body.
*Emre – The one who is saying “I” ! isn’t other than just a drop. Because he/she separates himself/herself from the sea. We can’t wash up in a drop. As a result, the drop is sentenced to dry. We can’t benefit from the ones who are the drops. The only benefit is from the ones who had poured his/her drop into the sea and had turned to the sea.
*Emre – The one who is searching God himself/herself alone , founds himself/herself and turns to devil.
The Sufic Explanation of Hodja Nasreddin Narratives
There may be a path exists beyond the poplar tree…
The children of parish had been decided to convince Hodja climbing a tree in order to steal his shoes as a joke. While Hodja was passing near them, they looked at his face weirdly saying to each other “it’s really hard to climb that tree”. Hodja had said them pretending not to understand their jokes:
“Is it really hard to climb this poplar tree? I’ll do it.” The children said:
“Climb it then, let’s see you. This isn’t just a word.“
Hodja, had tucked in his skirt, had replaced his shoes inside of his waistcloth.
The children who aware of that their joke goes wrong, asked Hodja:
-“Why don’t you leave your shoes downside?”
Hodja had answered by laughing:
-“There may be a path exists beyond the poplar tree…”
Emre’s Interpretation:
The poplar tree has no fruit. Hodja, likens the self to a poplar tree. He takes measures by hiding his shoes into his belly, in order to prevent their bad intentions. On the other hand, he aims to tell the path of truth can also go beyond the poplar tree.
The children had only laughed that word. If they asked “can there be a path beyond the poplar tree?” Hodjawould answer them, laughing:
– “Yes, the path can go beyond the poplar tree of the self; even it begins after that.”