The Inner Source Digest – Unit: 17

July 1959
Issue: 17
EMRE’s Conversations: 17

(Notes which are saved from a conversation at 20.12.1958)

Q. – Our questions would be unsatisfactory; because we are unfamiliar with this subject. The questions which will be asked from the ones who are unaware of this knowledge will be messy, not in a systematic way. For this reason please excuse us.

Emre – Don’t mention about, go ahead.

Q. – I came here to be able to see the owner of the work through His work. But the effective one (owner) which I can see from here will depend on the effect (work) just like the water which takes the shape and color of its plate and just like the white light shining with the same color of the bottle. From now on, I will try to recognize the plate before water and the bottle before light. Beyond any doubt the capacity of an eye depends on the insight of the owner. In that case, I hope you’ll response me and my questions with high tolerance.

Emre – You already gave the answer.

Q. – Do you accept that your sicknesses sinse your childhood have been effected your spirituality? Do you ever think that your physical body and beside those sicknesses may have effect on the causes which lead you to arm up against your self?

Emre – Bodily sicknesses doesn’t have any effect. But the sicknesses related with mind, desire,  morality have effect. We aren’t this body. The real us is the might looking from our eye. Just like the necessity of feeding for this body, this might also needs nourishment. If it is not feeded, it dies too. It also has specific illnesses. We tried to kill this illness. We made our body sick, I mean we made weaken it with abstinence in order to revive this might.

Q. – Do you claim that we are in different type of creation respective to the Adam’s. Let me ask more clearly:  “Do the physical, chemical, biological laws belonging to Adam effect you in a different way respect to the other people?”

Emre – The whole creation is same. We believe in Koran, hadith isn’t it? But believing through contemplation is better than the straight blief. The Prophet Mohammed says “all ones have been borned in the same nature of Islam” That means everybody has the same creation. Then the colors, the wishes of environment pervades him/her. The character, wish which he/she loved most,  grows together with him/her. Lets assume a bad character had grown with us, despite that we don’t loose our hope from God. If someday we submit, fall into trouble admitting our weakness and offense and ask “how can I know you?” , then God surely helps. In this case we start to draw a lesson from everything we’ve seen; our comprehension widens, “brain digestion” begins.

Q. – So, you say “ everything is perfect as innate” .        

Emre – It isn’t perfect but the seed of perfection is hidden in itself. If one works, this seed also grows. There is a hadith saying: “the one who is robber in his mom’s thummy he becomes a robber in his life, if he is good in mom’s tummy, he is also good in life” . In another hadith he says “the one who wants to be good, can succeed”. That meanshe values the will. Actually the tummy of mom refers to the might in ourselves, it is the real mother.

This body of us is also mom’s tummy. So, it is needed to be born from this body. If one works in this path, there comes a time he/she leaves his/her body where he/she stands, he/she tours everywhere, then he/she turns back to his/her body.

Q. – Is this  “to die before death”?

Emre – That’s it! But death is understood respect to everyone’s mind. The real death is to be born from this mother. For example lets think about The Prophet Mohammed’s ascension. It’s being asked that whether or not he succeeded in ascension with his own body. 

Q.- Somebody says that he can succeed in body because God has might for this. Some others say that he succeeded in spiritual.

Emre – The ones who is saying “he succeeded in spiritual” without understanding, is just like the others. To where he will go? Ultimate union is an understanding, a comprehension. There is no place to go and come. What exists in sky? There is no special position of God in there.

Q. – What is this ascension?

Emre – It is an understanding and comprehension.

Q. –So, do you mean in that night The Prophet Mohammed comprehended God?

Emre – Yes, isn’t it? Lets think about it.

Q. – Yes, this is the most reasonable.

Q. – It’s seen that you smoke. Obviously, cigarette is mushbooh but it’s not forbidden, as a result it’s harmful. Despite of the rate of its harm is unknown actually, everybody has consensus of its harm. Its only use is its pleasure-giving feature. And this pleasure-giving state responds directly to the self.

Emre – No, smoke doesn’t give pleasure. I mean it doesn’t benumb the human and his/her mind just like rakı. This is a habit.

Q. – Doesn’t habit corresponds to the self? You are claiming that you’ve cleaned your body and soul by means of ascetisicm and reach the highest pleasure. Then you aren’t abstain from pleasing your self with a substance which contradict the nature of body. In a sense you are being defeated by your ego.

Emre – We didn’t claim anything, just said what we’ve experienced. We didn’t claim with ego.

Q. – Why your self is defeated to it?

Emre – Let us do just a small wish of the self.

Q. – Isn’t smoke wasting?

Emre – Yes.

Q. – Isn’t wasting forbidden?

Emre – God is forgiving and merciful; let us have such a small blame to go to the near of Him and see His face in order to make forgive our blame.

Q. –In the 3.issue of Inner Source while you were talking to the priest, he had claimed that sexual relation refers to the lack of self control. After you replied him as an answer of his question, you’ve said “I forgot this subject since eleven years, believe me it isn’t more than hundred times during my marriage”. Do you think that for a Saint, the multiplicity of sexual relation in marriage refers to the lack of self control?

Emre – No, the spiritual pleasure of mine was more than this physical pleasure. I left for this reason. If it is permissable, it doesn’t matter. But, isn’t it better not to waste of his/her resume, essence of his/her life? This pleasure which lasts two minutes is for generation. The whole capacity of us, is being wasted with it.

Q– Muhiddîni Arabî says in his book  “Fusus-ul Hikem” page 315 : “the biggest Reunion is being mate of man and women. “

Emre- That means dogs take pleasure more than us. How can it be real?  Muhiddîn had died at 83 years old. Can we assume Muhiddîn as out of humanity after he lost his sexual ability? There comes a time when human lives long, looses his/her sexual ability. There are such a lot of spiritual pleasures which the pleasure of desire is nothing with respect to them. Upon tasting those spiritual pleasures, human forgets to eat, to drink, even to sleep. He/she can’t denominate you and me; sees this realm as a whole. Muhiddîn-i Arabî must have said this word in different meaning. The previous and succeeding parts of this remark must be read carefully in order to understand the real meaning.

The dirt of lust is cleared by full ablution, the dirt of our face is cleared by ablution. But after the full ablution of body, the full ablution of mind is also necessary. If mind is cleared with ablution, you will see everything clear, you will see everything as coming from God. Yunus Emre who applied the full ablution of mind says “your action is so stern, how can the water will purify? “. That means if your activity and character is bad, how can the water purify, clear it? Water doesn’t clear the action. Then he says : “fasting, prayer, ablution, pilgrimage is shame for the lovers “.

Q. – Why?

Emre – There is an inner meaning of this word. It’s hard to tell. Noone could able to tell the whole truth, just the one who understood could able to understand. And the one who wanted to understand could able to do this uniting with the teller. One of them must be absent for the manifestation of pleasure.  

Q. – So, this is a unification in idea, isn’t it?

Emre – It’s not only idealistic; it must be in mind, thought, soul, love. How can we try to tell, the words are separating us from our goal. But there comes a time the one who wants to tell, tells with his/her eye. So, the one who wants to understand,  listens with his/her eye and understands with his/her eye. I mean again one of them is being absent. After that, neither word nor pen can define. Sufism and state begins just after the termination of Word.

Q. – The Prophet Mohammed had said: “I couldn’t know my Lord without my tutor “. Was it necessary to have a tutor for him?

Emre – He himself has said, don’t we believe?

Q. – Can’t we cognize this in a different way?

Emre – How can we cognize the word of “bread” in a different way? 

Q. –I think the tutor of The Prophet Mohammed was his good-sense. Isn’t it wrong to look for a tutor other than God?  

Emre – Maybe, this is your opinion. But, we believe in what he said. If the meaning which he intended would be the same with your understanding, couldn’t he say “my tutor is my good-sense” without falling us in doubt?

Q. – It’s been said that Gabriel is a good-sense. Why The Prophet Mohammed didn’t say good-sense instead of Gabriel? 

Emre – It is so entailed. The mind is bounded by this body. The one can leave this body only with love. It’s so arranged. The mind is registered by this body. Only love can separate one from this body. The human can even love a girl and die for her. Some others sacrifice their lives in order to know God. Mind gives each fear. But love removes all of the fears. Therefore in his poem Mevlid, Süleyman Çelebi makes Love say “let me burn myself thou Halil” when Gabriel couldn’t go further from a level. If we can understand this, we’ll also understand the meaning of that symbol. But we are reading Mevlid in order to gain good deeds instead of understanding the meaning.

Q. – Who was the tutor of Hazrat Âdem?

Emre – This can’t be understood by using mind.  The universe has neither past nor an end… Only the ones who are being absent in God, can see the greatness of God.

Q. – The history of humanity is being accepted as 50.000 years.

Emre – Scientists depend on science, and science is restricted with mind. Do we able to know which realms were existed before the known history?

Q. – Is there anyone among the ancient civilisations who had reached to this level?

Emre – There’s no such a thing that time and space. God also has no time and space. But mind has even time and space. Does sphere have right, left, top, bottom? Which wise man knows the future of him just after two minutes?

Two priest had come to The Prophet Mohammed asking so many detailed questions. When our prophet thought that would be impossible to explain to them, he sends them to Hazrat Ali. When they arrived, he was eating rice. Hazrat Fatma opens the door. Ali says welcome; they also attend the dinner. They say “we came here to ask some questions; can you know? “ He says “either I know or not.” They ask “how many stars are there? “ He says, “if you are able to know the count of lentils instead of rises, I will say the count of the stars. “  Upon this answer, one of them becomes believer.                                                                                                                         

The human mind is the weakest one. Animals have more intelligence than human. Because they know everything but they keep the secret. When human gains the ability to save the secret, then his/her honour begins at this time.

Q. – So, the human is in lower level in knowledge than some animals; in this case how can he/she be honourable?

Emre – But are they beautiful, capable as much as human? Even misdeeds are quality; because if you shake them off, then goodness appears below it.   

Q. –While I was reading The Inner Source, I’ve seen that you didn’t say “I” in your own position.  How did Mansur say “I” ?

Emre – The One who is saying “I” from them is God. From our mouth also some similar words had been said. God forbid! I’ve never said them. This self belongs to God. Is there any value of our self near the Eternal Self, which is unaware of the two minutes after now.

Q. – I’ve learned that you went to İstanbul in order to meet a French orientalist. So, isn’t there some ego in introduction of yourself to the Euorepan orientalists?

Emre – Actually it is arranged by Mr. Şevket not me. I want to introduce God instead of me to everyone as much as I can. If they are inquiring without hypocrisy, we want to inform as much as we know. Don’t you?

Q. – I didn’t cognize this state of “to inform”.

Emre – Don’t we think of us better than Christians in religious aspect?

Q. – Yes.

Emre – So, if someone ask, don’t you want to inform what you know? If someone ask, we also want to inform the questioner as a favor to him/her.

Q. –What is the meaning of  “I exonerate myself, how great is my glory”  ?

Emre – God says from Him also. 

Q. – Shams-ı Tabrizi asks Rumi (Mevlâna): “Why those words are said by Bayezid Bistami instead of The Prophet Mohammed?”. He had answered that the comprehension of The Prophet Mohammed was greater than his. I mean those words belong to the ones having much lover degrees.

Emre – Actually the degree of Bayezid is not small. If it were a small degree, God wouldn’t be come and sit there to say His words from there. A great Sultan doesn’t come and sit on a small chair.

The greatness of The Prophet Mohammed comes from his invitation by deigning from his degree. This case he is just one of us; not together with God. But Bayezid says this word while he is in unity with God. The Prophet Mohammed says “ we couldn’t know you as much as needed” while he was not in unity. He has a great understanding. In Koran also there aren’t such great words. But there are the words which lead us to contemplate. Why we make an oath on God? Because God is great. But in Koran it is being sweared on fig and olive. Then praising belongs to the mortals. Does God praise?

Q. – I don’t know.

Emre – “Praise be to The Lord of Realms.” Is this a verse?

Q.– Yes.

Emre – Who is saying, God or The Prophet?

Q. – It is Koran, so it’s God’s word.

Emre – Lets leave aside sin and bigotry and think through the common sense. Does God praise himself?

Q. – How could it be said?

Emre – If it were needed in a different way, He would say. It is said just as it is.

Q. – Wouldn’t The Prophet Mohammed aware of this?

Emre –How would’t He?… He sure would; just said in this way. We have to accept what he said. If we don’t know with his knowledge, we can’t be united with him. If we walk in that way with our own knowledge, we will become profane. In spiritual paths we always examine ourselves with his knowledge. His knowledge is a measure for us. He didn’t take away his knowledge, he left it to us.

Q. – How a revelation comes from God?

Emre – There is no path to come in order to show you. There is no wire, no cable. There is no thing like that. Think, what is electricity? How is that power transmitted through such tiny wires? Even the founder of electricity doesn’t aware of it. It is a divine state.

Q. – Does it come as words?

Emre – State; state;

Q. – How this state is transferred to the words? Can’t we understand this?

Emre – This can only be understood through contemplation. For this reason, our Prophet says “one hour contemplation is valuable more than 60 years long praying. “ There is a verse saying “praying prevents evil but dhikr is greater than this ”. Dhikr is talking about those subjects instead of counting the beads saying Allah! Allah! Can human absolutely get rid of evil by praying?

Q. – Ok, don’t they perform the ritual prayer as in formal?

Emre – Yes, we also say this. As you said, form has also an inner aspect.

Q. – Isn’t sheriah the primary way of  learning  the “innate science”?

Emre – What is sheriah?

Q. – We know sheriah as formal.

Emre – The ritual prayer is a debt not sheriah. Sheriah is ethic. And only the one who can control his/her own self belongs to the community of sheriah.

Q. – What’s the meaning of sheriah?

Emre – Law.

Q. – What about the ones who can’t control the self?

Emre – They aren’t the sheriah people.

Q. – Doesn’t he bend whether he/she is strong or not?

Emre – Is there any value in bending just because of fear? Don’t we do various actions after this fear has passed. This is hypocrisy. Human either must be seen as it is, or must be as it is seen.

Q. – What are the specifications of The Perfect One?

Emre – His/her character and state. But, one can’t see The Perfect without being mature. Wasn’t Mansur The Perfect One? If they knew, would they kill him?

Q. – How can we separate him from the other people?

Emre – By His character.

Q. – Is there any verse, hadidth about this subject?

Emre – The priests comes to a Perfect saying  “we want to ask you something, do you know” ? He replies “either I know or not”. They say we will ask you about the measure. He says; “I know”. What is the measure of sugar? Kg. What about carpet? Meter. Etc.. etc. So, what is the measure of human? His character. But some people hide their character. Their measure is the people they talk to. As a result the measure of Perfect is His character and friends.

Q. – Some people talk to the good people despite of their bad character.

Emre – Good people don’t talk to them when they aware of his/her evil side.

Q. – It’s been said that there is a unique Perfect One.

Emre – There are many Perfects but God is uniqe.

Q. – If it were just one, the path would be closed, isn’t it?

Emre – Yes; but there is another subject, a governor is not responsible only from a small region.  Their highness is in their service, their responsibility about everyone.

Q. – Is there any difference in levels of those Perfect Ones. ?

Emre – There is. We will accept. There are a lot of governers but one president. Could we able to tell?

Niyazi says:

Q. – Why both Bâyezîd and Mansur says “I’m God” ? Which one is true?

Emre – All of them are true. When we put the irons into the fire, to which one we can touch? They may say “I’m fire!” until they become cold. 

Q. – Each iron feels being of fire in itself, but…

Emre – He says because of this feeling. It’s not blasphemy for you also to say “I’m Haqq”

Q. – I just wanted to ask this question now.

Emre – Cat has right for being a cat, dog has right for being a dog. Are those papers same which one of them is paper of cigarette and the other is paper of pocket. But they become same after being totally fired.

God also has the names like seditious (Müfsid) , misleader (Mudil).  They’re all right. The attribute of Devil is also right. Who can change? Who has power? But if a man intends, he can get rid of this bad attribute of him,  by begging God.

Q. – Is there any method of “innate science” ?

Emre – There is. First of all, to forget the things forbidden by God. Then thinking about “from where I came? To where am I going? How will be my end? “ . In this way it’s needed to accomplish the knowledge of incapacity. Till to the half of the way, this knowledge of incapacity goes on. Human can’t enter this realm unless awaring of his/her incapacity.

Q. – What is the end of this science?

Emre – The level of nothingness. Incapacity goes on but human understands more his/her incapacity as progressed. Innate science is the science of incapacity. It’s so hard to deign.

When talking about science, it’s being compared the the worldly sciences. Actually they are reverse of each other. This is the science of forgetting instead of worldly science. But this mustn’t be understood that giving up working. Working never is an obstacle to this. People have understood this wrong in past and led this nation to laziness, causing the backwardness. Most of the muslim countries are begging from Europe. This is because of the ignorant hodjas.

Q. – Mr. Aziz Efendi had been said: “we know the thing in order to know everything”.

Emre – Didn’t you ask what was this thing?

Q. – I guess to know God.

Emre – Is it easy to know Him?…

Q. – Which one is necessary to find in order to know or to know in order to find?

Emre – Both of them are necessary. You can’t know without finding and can’t find without knowing. It had been mentioned about some levels before; “certainty with science (İlmelyakîn) , certainty with intuition (Aynelyakîn), perception of Truth (Hakkalyakîn).” First of all, it’s needed to know; then it comes to see. After that He will be closer to you than your own self. He will be together with you. You are far from your own self more than Him. He is in such a close state.

Q. – What do we have to understand by certainty with science?

Emre – Certainty with science is believing in God. But can the belief of God same for an ignorant and a scientist? Science is a small word but is it easy to know all of the worldly sciences? Can it be possible? Even the graduation of a university takes 15 years long. But noone must be hopeless from learning this science. There needs 15 years to finish the university but God is so merciful. If He wants, solves the problem of human in a year or even a day. He gives this according to the love of the human.

Q. – That means there is no restriction in this science, isn’t it?

Emre – Yes.

Q. – Can human find by himself/herself?

Emre – No. If it were so, would there be the prophets?

Q. – Can’t it be with only The Koran?

Emre – The Koran is just a paper. Can it teach us a science if we kiss, put it in our chest or hang it up in a high position and we pass under it? Certainly there must be a living person in order to explain the Koran. Can Koran solve our problem if we don’t understand some section of it and ask?

There has been a school in a mountain village. They requested a teacher from government. The teacher had come. Everybody had invited him dinner one by one. And at some night when the teacher saw a thick book at the shelf, he asked:

—What’s this book about? The child of house answers:

—It’s about death.

—How such a thing is this?

—They read this book when someone is dead.

The teacher wonders and takes the book, sees it’s Koran. That means in this village Koran is only had been read for dead person. Although Koran isn’t for the dead ones, it’s for us.

Q. – Mehmet Akif had said for us:

Emre – Yunus Emre also says:

People don’t try to understand the meanings of verses and hadiths in their lives. Then when they are striving for their lives, we continually try to read Yasin.

 In Koran God says “You Mohammed! You are dead, they also are dead. “

We need to read Yâsin to ourselves just now. But if we don’t want to listen, they don’t read. We have to want.

Q. – Doesn’t hermeneutics help innate science?

Emre – In truth, hermeneutics depends on mind. But our prophet says “the one who interprets Koran is infidel.” Those interpretations aren’t compatible with each other. They are according to the mind of interpreters. Which one of them is believer, which one is infidel? So, we need to believe in God’s words instead of the interpreters’. 

Q. – If the interpretations are according to the minds of interpreters, the innate science must be out of the mind, isn’t it?

Emre – Mind is being a companion during the process. But when the drop of mind drops to the sea which is the real source of it, Koran becomes unite with the one who is saying. In that case Koran becomes alive and interprets itself. Just like a mother feeding her child, live Koran begins to nurse to the ones who accept his motherhood with his word, eye, essence. Can Koran interpret itself to us?

Q. – No.

Emre – But there are some people who had been absent in God. Whenever we ask something to them, they answer. Mother takes pleasure even if she suffers because of her child. The Perfect One also feeds spiritually the ones (even being sleepless) who request without hypocrisy and doubt.

Q. – Hazrat Ali says: “I am the live Koran, it’s the silent Koran.” This being of live Koran is in knowledge, isn’t it? 

Emre – No, it’s a state. The live Koran is rolling in eyes of the ones who walks and works in spiritual path.

Q. – I am reading “Fusûs-ül-Hikem” since four years, I couldn’t understand.

Emre – In order to understand them, the seal in ear must be removed. But there comes a time you’ll understand. You find a live friend, he/she tells you. It’s not possible without a tutor. I am also reading hastily; but can I understand the book of banking? There must be a tutor. But if one resolves, he/she surely can learn sufism. While we are saying “what is God”, God is with us, looking for himself together with us. All of the books describe a point. In order to tell us this subject, how much they had strived. They had beed hanged, made themselves flay.

Q. –Can divine love be compared to the love of mortals?

Emre – No. This love is beyond all of the other loves. Whatever we love, doesn’t it die?

Q. – It does. 

Emre – The Being who we love is immortal. The lover of Him is also immortal. The lover can’t think anyone other than his/her beloved one. In this path, as we think about the Perfect One and carry him in our mind with love, our existence begins to be transferred to him and He begins to be transferred to the freespace. How can mind understand this. Mind thinks that it will die together with the body. It assumes itself just as this body. But this body is a tool. While being in this body, we have to work and learn this knowledge. Otherwise this chance will be lost.

Q. – Isn’t this body belongs to us?

Emre – While we are inside of it, belongs to us. After we left, it doesn’t belongs to us.

Q. – Can’ t   “I- ness” or “we- ness” be accepted as wholeness? I am alive because of my mind. When I loose my mind, I mean when I faint, my self also is being lost.

Emre – Some people doesn’t loose themselves.

Q. – Herodot writes sun had been risen from the west twice. An Egyptian priest had told this to him.

Emre – He has seen just two of them. Who knows how many times… But the sun which has risen from the West, is not this sun, it is the sun of science. The sun of religion will also rise from Europe. They will learn Islam from us and then they will teach us.

Q. – What do you think about doomsday?

Emre – They say that there are some signs of doomsday. Everybody will deal only with his/her own self, unaware of the others. Do we know the inside of each other? When an earthquake occurs, don’t everybody deal only with his/her trouble?

Q. – We imagine doomsday as disjunction of atoms in earth.

Emre – We have this assumption because nowadays we so called know atom. How the people who don’t know atom were imagining doomsday living two hundred years ago?

Q. – Doesn’t earth has a beginning?

Emre – It doesn’t.

Q. – Doesn’t earth progress?

Emre – Earth doesn’t progress, human does.

Q. – There is a theory that earth came to this state from chaos.

Emre – As a result, this is a theory. Human can’t feel comfort without finding a beginning and an end. We imagine a beginning and an end because of the limit of the mind. Can the one who offer this theory prove it? Beside they declare that human comes from monkey. If there is a process starting from the single-celled to monkey and to the human, why would’t they be occur now. According to this theory we would have to see half-monkey, half-human creatures. Although God manages everything. The beginning and end of the earth is just like this.

Q. – What do you think about hell? Isn’t there a place for suffering torments?

Emre – If there is a fire in your house and you’ve informed it here, would’t be fired your heart?  The greatest hell is ignorance. The greatest heaven is also divine pleasure.

Q. – Is human life which is just sixty years long enough in order to get rid off the self and being absent in God?

Emre – It’s not enough for being saved by mind; but thousand hours long path can be achieved in one hour by means of God’s help.

Saved by : Şevket Kutkan

The Sufic Explanation of Nasreddin Hodja Anectodes

To where my voice reaches?

Hodja had been working as a mouezzin in their region. Some day he is seen as running in street reciting the azan and the ones who saw him ask:

—Master Hodja, why do you run around reciting the azan?

Hodja, had answered seriously:

—I want to understand to where my voice reaches?

Interpretation

The azan which is performed by Nasreddin Hodja was the Truth, sufist azan. When he couldn’t make hear this azan to the people around, he made a joke. His aim is to tell the Truth in which he dissolved, to the people in his region. In order to do this, he even doesn’t beware of being ridiculous. This is the real mercy.