EMRE’s Conversations: 4
(a conversation which is captured at 25.1.957):
Q.- It is said that beside the goal itself, to be on the same way with goal also makes the people happy. We can not feel this too.
Emre – The one who knows his/her trouble actually finds the remedy of it. Lets not involved to the ones who like their state. There is no magnificent science other than knowing the weakness. The highest science is to know his/her weakness and apology.
Q.- After knowing, trying to defeat is necessary, isn’t it?
Emre – After knowing means he also defeated it.
Q.- The direction, goal and everything of this work is be able to make his will obedient, as if he had put it by hand.
Emre – Yes, the will is absolutely necessary. But it is also necessary to use up and leave the will. Becasuse after resigning the will to (The Whole), there remains no will. The will is necessary till to that stage in which it is used up completely.
Q.- After reaching the realm of grace it’s not possible to harm anyone, isn’t it? In that case, there will be no problem in giving up the will.
Emre – Anyhow it doesn’t stay. Man uses the sword in order to kill the enemy. When the enemy is dead it’s needed to put it up on the wall. Is there any usage of it anymore?
Some wise men say: “for us there is no difference of illicit and permissible”. Everybody understand this remark according to his/her mind. Some people misunderstand this subject and conflict the illisit and permissible. Wheras, they mean everything is permissible because they gave up the illicit things! That means it is also necessary not to misunderstand the remark “no need for the will”. We can’t go through this path if we don’t use our will till it is delivered to God. The things which consume the will are the illicit ones. Ignorance, self, pride these are all illicit. The actual duty is to convert those illicit things to permissible.
There remains no pleasure if you say I am above one of these people. The pleasure is in the nothingness. The absence of pain leads the existence of pleasure. The pleasure occurs just after the pain ceased.
(Here Emre said those with respect to another subject):
Emre – Some people handle the sword of dominance, the ones who are against to them are being killed. If we want to defeat (we say it as an example) we will do it gently. The real ability for human is to defeat the self not the other. The real strength is to recognize and to know the right not only for him/her but for the enemy also. The one who says that “I am right “, is unjust. Yes, maybe today or some more days you can be right, but not always. We must aware of the times in which we are unjust.
Q.- Even if we are right, there can be others who are right in a different way of thought, isn’t it?
Emre – The one who doesn’t know to listen also doesn’t know to understand. Arabs have a remark maybe it’s a hadith ; “Patience opens every door”. Patience is a fair thing. There is nothing which the sword of patience couldn’t cut. One of the beautiful names of God is patience.
Q.- In a book of Necip Fâzıl there is a paragraph: “There was a man who is living in his villa. He bought a girl from slave traders. But the man had died after a while. The girl had been begging God for the resurrection of dead. Then someday this girl had bought another slave as a close friend. The first slave prayed 39 days long. Then on 40.th day she went outside for a while and left the other girl near the dead man. During this time, dead man resurrected. The girl lied him by saying “I have been waiting you since 40 days”. After learning the effort for him, man loved the girl then decided to make her master and the first one slave. The first girl said nothing not to blame revealing her lie. She served for a long time and never complained. New master then turned mad because of her patience and said to her “I will fire you if you offend anyway“. But the girl neither offended, nor complained just kept on her patience. Beside her dark heart, fake master couldn’t harm her because of her noble patience. Really, look at this power of patience…
Emre – They’ve designed stories in order to tell, having someone to listen the truth. Doesn’t “Circular Shinings” belong to him?
Emre – If he wouldn’t love, could he combine them? He has a lot of services.
M.B. – He is seen as dark from the outside, but it is not true. Someday he said, ”I will lead on you somewhere “ we went to a village. He gave one lira to a child. He said “I’ll watch my savior Esseyid Abdülhakim”. He was crying as a humble. Then told “before I met this man I was wretched and rogue. When I’ve resigned into his hands, I saved from all. I visit him everytime.”
In any trouble, he used to remember him and he could escape from the disasters. He had been dedicated his poem book named “Infinity Caravan “ (Mehmed Bayazıd reads this poem with his strong voice): “The sculptures of Divine Radiance are on the way… ”
He assimilates the men of love as sculptures of divine radiance, and himself as a lame dog following them.
Emre – You are all sculptures of divine radiance.
M.B. – Necip Fâzıl was able to say “I am a lame dog “. Then I loved him. That means there are such people, for whom, a man like Necip Fâzıl wants to be a dog.
Q.- Necip Fâzıl wanted the people become educated, by themselves and fast.
Emre – It’s not possible without an effort. Everything is possible with study. Some people are not satisfied by civilization, they request to reach quickly. But it takes time.
Q.-Maybe he has low patience despite of writing the book named ”The Stone of Patience “.
Emre – Who knows …?
Q.- Many artists can’t stand because of their high sensitivity.
Emre – It’s necessary to stand. After knowing that everything comes from God, beside we accept what happened, there remains no limits of time and space. Anyhow, intellects which are not conjucted to God, are being lost. The intellects which are conjucted to God are United with God. They are the ones that can be patient.
Q.- It’s really very beautiful.
Emre – They don’t stay idle. During their physical activity, their hearts work also. They tolerate what happened and what will happen.
Q.- They live as natural isn’t it? Their lives are stable, isn’t it sir?
Emre – Yes. This essence, the capability of learning the truth, has been put into the everybody’s ferment, just at the beginning of creation. Everybody who has a wish can follow this path. There is no favour in this subject.
Behind the temporary vitality of our body, there exists an eternal vitality. In order to reach it, patience is necessary. Perseverance is also needed but when they are together there reveals a lot of states, he/she gives up anger and loves everybody.
Someone asked to the man who knows the secret of truth, “How will I succeed in this duty? I’m handed in you, teach this to me “. The man said “Let’s start with a,b,c, ok?”, “Ok sir “ , “The first lesson; you will aware that everything is beause of God, not the people”, “Ok “, “You will interfere nobody”, “ok”.
After taking his lesson man went outside. Then he saw a crowd and men playing drum and horn. While watching them he says from inside: “You are the drummer, does playing befit you? Let the others play belly dance.” Upon this the drummer came and whispered to his ear : “We recommended you patience just before, how fast you forgot it ?”
Q.- Doesn’t patience and praise alone cause laziness?
Emre – Yes it is stupidity, it’s something like to rebel God. You need to work, earn and then praise.
Q.- Indeed, it is very important to understand the praise like this…
Emre – The praise of lazy man is the praise of weak.
Q.- Everyone can’t have the patience like Ayyup.
Emre – Everyone can have. Ayyup, was before than The Prophet Mohammed. If we belong to his community, then if we wish, we can climb up the “kiosk of patience” which is greater then Ayyup’s.
Q.- Isn’t the patience a kindness of God?
Emre – It’s a kindness of God but it’s given to everybody. If we say that it doesn’t belong to everybody, it is similar to the praise of the lazy one. To say that “I can not reach something” is also laziness.
Q. – We just need thankfulness.
Emre –We never must be satisfied and always must be in the path.
Q. –The people can’t reach their goal fully, but…
Emre – If the goals are multiple, they can’t reach. Five or ten mark can’t be hit with the same gun. If we wait, then we can. While we are walking to the goal, there occurs a lot of goals and targets. At the end of these steps, we reach Mersin for example. Then we enter.
Q.- The aim of goal, is to know all of the unknowns. I wish nothing remains as unknown for us.
Emre – You can’t know that; it is impossible.
Q.- I don’t say it for myself. I say it for the whole humanity.
Emre – I said all of the unknowns can’t be known for the whole humanity, not just for you. Because each one of the people is oriented to a different goal. Horologer wants to make watch and basket maker wants to make basket. There is no way to lead them to a single goal.
Q.- Where are we going?
Emre – Towards the spirituality. This goal is common. Althouh each human in this world has a desire. Nobody can neither know nor think like the other. These type of minds only comes together in the state of nothingness (absence). In this case minds are delivered to God. The goals are separate till to say “Everything comes from God” just like The Prophet Mohammed said.
Can a human know the things which he will meet before starting to walk? The duty is to defeat the obstacles. When we intend this, God also helps us. Look, how this houseowner serves us… How can’t God help us? When God helped, all of our goals will come to the end, then there remains just one goal. Words can’t describe the knowledge and experience at that time.
Q.- Would there be the idea of God if all of the unknowns be known?
Emre – Is it worldly unknown or spiritual unknown? If it is unknown of the bank sytem, I don’t care. If it is the unkown of the tailor, I don’t deal with it. What you mean with this remark?
Q.- Humanity is improving towards God either conscious or unconscious. It is improving towards to the divine light. The end of all improvement is being able to find God inside of us or to find God by revealing the unknowns. Some day if we able to reach God, there will be no difference between human and God. In such a realm can the idea of God remains?
Emre – How can it remain? Does the goal of human remain after his death? Will there be a goal, idea of a dead person? The goal is delivered to God. Beside there is no goal for God. But this duty, I mean becoming absent in God is not easy. It can’t be accomplished with words and averment. One of the names of God is “The Mighty”.What do we might? Do we know what will happen just after two minutes?
Q. – It is useless to know neither two nor 102.000 minutes later. We will turn to someone who does not pray between the two mosque.
Emre – (as a joke ) Look at him, he turned his face to me and he is talking about lack of praying.
Q.- No, excuse me I didn’t mean yourself.
Emre – I am joking.
M.B.- Love handles the things which can’t be handled by the mind.
Emre – Yes, love doesn’t let human to sleep. There are some people who can’t listen and think about those remarks even five minutes long. There are also some people who don’t remove God from their mind even during their job. Their loving minds belong to God while dealing with their jobs. If we wish, we can be like them.
Different orders, religions can’t solve this problem. But upon thinking on “From where I came? To where I am going? What will be my end ?”some day, trouble comes to an end. This is the contemplation which The Prophet Mohammed mentioned : “one hour contemplation has more value than praying 60 years long.” This reflection makes the difference between human and animal. Human is the entire of all animals. That means he/she has the character of each animal. If someone wishes, he/she can conquer those characters and dominates them. He/she can think beyond the mind.
Q.- Isn’t the idea of God because of the weakness of human?
Emre– No, it’s because of his/her capability. Can animal think about God? It will eat, drink, and pair. Can an animal know other than this? His/her capability makes a human find God. At the end if we don’t think of God, our purpose is to eat, to drink and to marry isn’t it? Aren’t our trials, education because of this materialist goal? So, the human is only the one just walking beyond this materialist goal by means of the reflection steps of mind.
Q.- God is creating us with capabilities indeed. He had given us the power; the passion and love of overwhelming the unknown darkness. He had created us with all of these capabilities and then left alone, he had not held our hands. The human is in a dark realm just like a newborn child. He/she knows what he/she sees and perceive what he/she can perceive. Then he/she come accross the objects and his/her mind begins to improve. Love inside of him/her desires so great things, his/her capacity is not enough with respect to them. This causes the state of being hopeless. I think the intention to the idea of God is because of this weakness.
Emre – If the idea of God which we achieved, is because of the terrestial interests that means if it is because of the anxieties such that “will I be hungry? I wish he give much food, let my job be like this” yes, it’s because of the weakness. Poor mortal, instead of feeding the essences with the spiritual food which he/she had brought from the realm of eternity, overspend with those low benefits and ideas. This is cravenness.
Some people don’t want food from God, they endeavor, they earn and they begin to meditate on “where did I come from, where am I going to?” . While he/she cognizes what he/she read, his/her mind becomes improved. He/she thinks and search God. But can a human love someone he/she didn’t see?
Q.- It depends on the person.
Emre – No, it doesn’t depend on the person, it is according to the reason. We are all conditioned with reason.
Q. – How Veysel Karâni had fallen in love?
Emre – Veysel Karâni, had seen the Prophet Mohammed with the eye of heart, inward eye. When some people close their eyes even without closing, have such an incorporeal vision. The vision of our mind depending on the eye which consists of flesh and nerve, is like a cloud with respect to the incorporeal vision. Veysel Karâni, had seen what he would see through this vision, (witness). There was a teacher of Veysel. They say she is Veysel’s mother, but she isn’t. Actually he was spiritual mother of him. That man, the teacher of Veysel was aware of the Prophet Mohammed. When he was telling about his spiritual and moral magnificence, Veysel began to fall in love with The Prophet Mohammed. Then he saw him spiritually. In order to complete this inner vision with the outer vision he came hastily to Medine. But he went back without seeing him.
Veysel Karâni, asked Ebûbekir, Ömer and Osman about The Prophet Mohammed. They described him. Veysel said “No, you didn’t see The Prophet Mohammed “. When he asked Ali, he looked at the face of Veysel, then he saw The Prophet Mohammed in the eye of Ali. Then he had turned back and gone. The eye of heart which we mentioned before are the eyes similar to Ali’s eyes.
We are offering to our worthy readers a revelation of Emre related with this subject:
Neyleyim, (Yâr fitne) imiş…
Kur’ân dahî böyle demiş,
O (Fitne)yi görmek için
Nice âşıklar can vermiş….
Her göz bakamaz, kamaşır,
Kim ki zülfüne dolaşır,
Çok koşma ile varılmaz,
Canını veren ulaşır.
Kim ki bu canına kıyar,
O, (Dost)un sesini duyar;
Bu (cemi gafîr) içinde
Yüzbin de bir âşıkı var.
Ciğeri boyandı kana,
Gözü rasgeldi Osman’a;
Yana yana sordu ona.
Candan çağırmalı Bilal;
Öylece olunur visal;
Sâdık âşıkın gözüne,
Lâyık- doğar (Çifte Hilâl).
Buna derler (Kasabe Kavi);
Nur iken, görünüyor is;
Medine’ye geldi Üveys.
Canını attı bir kerre…
Yana yana suâl etti,
Âşık idi, onu göre.
Seyran etti, göremedi,
(Sen dahî görmedin) dedi;
O (Dilber)in yanık aşkı
Nice âşık canı yedi…
Sonra rasgeldi Omar’a
Bir zaman durdu huzûra;
Yüreğine kan işledi,
Görmüşlerden sora sora.
Ciğeri boyandı kana,
Gözü rasgeldi Osman’a;
Yana yana sordu ona.
Yandı, baktı döne döne,
Âşık canı yandı yine;
Baktı gelir (Hablülmetîn),
Sarıldı (Dostun ipi)ne.
Gözü rastgeldi Ali’ye,
Arkadaşlık etti bile;
Gördü ki kapı açılmış,
Canı attı nurdan göle.
(Emre)! Sen dâhi canı at,
Atan, bulur ölmez hayat.
Eğer aşkı bırakmazsan,
Ebedî kalırsın rahat.
Sadly, The Beloved is the seditious one;
This is being revealed also in Koran,
In order to see that Sower of Dissent,
Many lovers had lost their lives.
Every eye can’t look, becomes dazzled,
The one who got with his hair tangled,
By running so much, cant’t be reached,
Only the one giving up the life, arrives.
Can only hear the voice of Friend;
The one whose self is abandoned,
Inside of this huge crowd,
There exist just one lover.
His lung became blooded,
Then with Osman he confronted;
About the Beloved, accoladed,
He warmly investigated…
The call of Bilal must be sincere;
Just so, reunion becomes true;
Rises to the eye of loyal lover;
Double crescent, deservedly…
(Kasabe Kavi) is what they called;
It’s the divine light but seen as soot;
After watching in his geist,
Üveys had come to Medina.
He threw his spirit for one,
He met Ebubekir then;
Asked him with full passion,
He aimed to see his lover…
He watched to see but failed,
“Even you, couldn’t see “, he said;
Love of (Beauty)which is stunted,
Took the lives of many lovers.
Then with Omar he had met,
For a while he stayed against;
With his fully excited heart;
Asked from the testifiers.
His lung became blooded,
Then with Osman he confronted;
About the Beloved, accoladed,
He warmly investigated …
He burned and looked as whirling,
The spirit of lover is again burning;
He saw (the strong rope) is coming,
Then hold the rope of holy friend.
Then with Ali he encountered,
Even they’ve become friend;
He saw the door has opened,
Threw his spirit to the divine light.
(Emre)! drop the spirit even you,
The one who drops, finds immortality,
In eternal peace, you stay permanently,
If you never give up love.
Q.- Isn’t it possible for human to fall in love without seeing?
Emre – If it is so, he/she is an idiot…
Q.- Can’t they fall in love with God without seeing?
Emre – No they are suppositious lovers. Can supposition and the truth be the same? Maybe they also see but they can’t recognize. The one who can’t see God through the eye of heart, can’t see him with this eye and even can’t fall in love.
Maybe we had seen each other previously… But we didn’t know each other. Was this vision a real witnessing? When we see each other through the inner eye, we began to recognize.
Q.- Sir, according to the historical records we have, progression of religions have ended with Islam. Islam has been borned and progressed. But will humanity flowing with progression settle for Islam? Won’t it keep on progressing?
Emre – Everything is moving to the fullness. Ancient people aren’t same with contemporaries. Outer progression is continuously increasing, it is same for the inner side. We call Islâm as the last religion. Actually it is the last religion but not as frozen forms.
Look, The Prophet Mohammed said “Provisions change through time”. Generations see and understand this change; I mean progression during their enlightment process. Our understanding of religion is becoming old and steady state in front of this progression. Some of the Europans are getting in this caravan of progression and they’re being Muslim.
There are such things, such improved ideas and understandings in Islam and Koran our supposition in religion is behind of this understanding.
Q.- Will the people be able to exceed the level of Koran?
Emre – They can’t exceed the Koran. There is no way of progression for Koran. Koran is the last level. As being mortal, we are in progression towards to it. Religion is entering into our little mind growing and improving. What do you understand from Koran?
Q.- The last level of progression.
Emre – Did you understand and utilize Koran which is the last level of progression?
Emre – So, we are far and back from it. We are evolving towards to it and it stays at the top of the Truth. Wasn’t The Prophet Mohammed the tutor of this religion? Is tutor at front or back?
Q.- At front.
Emre –So The Prophet Mohammed is inside of our eye. In that case today is also the epoch of The Prophet Mohammed. We are the ones who do not progress.
M.B– Because they have closed the gate of deductive reasoning.
Emre– If it is so, let them remove Koran also. Because Koran says the people “lets think” . Their understanding is in that level.
M.B.- I accept the publication of (New Yunus Emre) and (Inner Source) as a renaissance.
Emre – God says in Koran: “I’ve created human in order to know me “.So what, if I don’t know? What did we understand in this case? Isn’t it better to digest Koran instead of faith healing? But lets digest it with our ear and mind.
We are afraid of holding Koran (if we say this then we will be hit, if we do that, I don’t know what will happen). We afraid because we are disloyal. Isn’t it? Isn’t it said “the one who fear is betrayer”?
Fear comes from the ignorance. Sufism saves the human from this ignorance and fear. When the human thinks and talks about these matters, his/her troubles are solved. After then he/she reaches the whole stillness. But we can’t recognize the human who have reached the whole stillness. There is no difference between a commander and a soldier in bath, because they have no title. There is no way to recognize a Perfect Human other than entering his loving mind.
Now as you said, instead of telling those subjects to us they have closed the gates of deductive reasoning. In that case do we need to throw the Koran to the water…
M.B.- In the movie of Rumi (Mevlânâ) , Şems had thrown the books to the water…
Emre – Those thrown books were related with scholastic education. Could Rumi able to be saved without throwing them?
M.B. – Everywhere there is this love-scholastic discussion. Scholars are dealing with the form. They don’t like lovers.
Emre – Sufists love everybody. None of the sufists killed someone. But what did the sharia people to them… Anyhow their phase of command is over. Now this is the phase of intellectuals…
M.B. – Churchill has also a remark something like this.
Emre – I don’t deal with politicy, because I don’t understand, but I can say that, aren’t our polititians more intellectual than the ones 50 years ago?
It is said that Sultans have used fortune tellers. If they would believe in The Prophet Mohammed could they believe in fortune tellers? Because The Prophet Mohammed has said that “all of the fortune tellers are big liars “.
Q.- Most of the prophets were occured in Middle East. What is the real cause of this? Why they don’t occur in Europe or some other place?
Emre – Countless prophets had come and passed away other than those who we know the names.
In future, ices at the poles will melt; life will begin there, this place will be a pole. After the ice melted, so much creations of civilization will reveal… The period of history is not long enough to see and to know them. Altough world is infinite and eternal, it has neither an age nor beginning.
M.B.- Everybody has a different understanding of prophet and God.
Emre – For Moses manifestation occurred as fire at a tree. Just so human lights the fire in his loving mind… Just so human stand on spiritual wealth. After a while comprehension also progresses.
Was it possible talking about those subjects 50 years ago?
Q. – A German thinker says “Bigotry is to put pressure on the sacred ideas. Being intellectual is trying to invest the fair sides of the new ideas and make them come alive, besides being able to defeat the harmful sides by means of ideological struggle”.
M.B.- Members of religious order have a tendency for bigotry.
Emre – We don’t approve bigotry.
Q.- Bigotry corresponds to a dead form.
Emre – Backwardness, backwardness.
Q. – It’s like impossible for human intelligence to accept this…
Emre – But they are always accepting. Although, only most intellectual ones can be rescued from this.
Q. – Human must check himself/herself , “am I in bigotry” ?
Emre – Is there a measure for the ones who is in the measure of the mind I mean the prison of mind?… If somebody liked a state for example bigotry, how can he/she will come out at and measure it? Human can see the measure just after he/she come out at and rescue from that state.
People takes different tastes according to their needs from sugar. Their beliefs are different also. People can’t measure their beliefs, their own states. Sufists tolerate this, as it is.
Q. – I’ve read a treatise; it is written in there; “In hell, legs will be burned first because women are walking around with naked legs”.
Emre – The man who is saying that the “women will burn first from their leg” means he doesn’t know what the hell is.
I think, women must be well educated and then must be freed. In order to be preserved from the enemy, woman must see and must aware of him/her. In a country, depending on how much women are educated, men also are being well educated and then there comes the progression of country.
Captured by : Şevket Kutkan
Mystical explanation of Nasreddin Hodja Anecdotes
Q. – Since many times Nasreddin Hodja is shown in pictures as riding the donkey reversely. Maybe they are doing this because this happened sometime. Actually this pose of Nasreddin Hodja is not good but can there be a deep meaning in that?
Emre – Sure, there is: Isn’t (donkey), a thing which can be riden? This body is also a donkey, a ride. Our mind and morale have riden on this donkey. But the direction of our mind is towarded to our past, just because we don’t know where to go. We know the places we passed, but we don’t know where are we going. Nasreddin Hodja is trying to tell this by making laugh. So we need a perfect one like Nasreddin Hodja who will make ride our mind to the donkey in correct direction and show him/her the destination and his tutor. Actually if he/she doesn’t turn, he/she can’t see his/her tutor. Beacause tutor is at the forward because he/she is leading. The meaning of (turning namaz) is this, that means turning of mind towards the Beauty of God, forgetting the old knowledge.
Isn’t it like this in wordly things? Look at the nations which proud of their past, they are actually not civilized. United States neither deals with past nor something. It has no time other than progressing and working… The one who is looking backward, certainly missed his/her way and cant’t find the destination.
I said this to the late Remzi Oğuz Arık during our conversation some time ago and he liked it. Although his job was dealing with the old remnants. How could I know? (the late R.O.Arık, was historian and archaeologist.)